One tactic that has been increasingly used by the religious in debates (both online and out in the “real” world) is to attempt to show that their claims are in fact backed up by science and reason. This has been the tactic of the “Intelligent” design movement and is often used by one of it’s leading proponents Kent Hovind. Essentially, their arguments are stated in a manor that makes them sound scientific. If I as a listener wanted to believe what these people are saying I would come away with the sense that they had somehow proven something to me, through reason and science.
However, when people that make arguments like these come across actual scientists, or even just people who are listening closely, their arguments are usually demonstrated to be much less solid then they would have you believe. Take Shawn (aka VenomFangX) on Youtube. Shawn has posted many videos that try to prove the existence of god, or jesus, or that dinosaurs and people were around at the same time 6000 years ago. If you don’t listen closely you might think that he makes some good points…but luckily for us a lot of people listen closely!
Here is an example of the type of argument Shawn tends to use, as well as some rational responses to it:
Sounds pretty good right? From the comments on YouTube you would think that Shawn had stumbled onto some ultimate line of reasoning that forever ended the Reality / Religion debate. After all, he even states at the end that there is no way to disprove him. I guess we can all go home and prepare for the apocalypse right? But wait:
That would seem to call into question Shawn’s rock solid “proof” of god’s existence. It also pretty much shoots down his (and all creation “scientists”) style of argument. By proclaiming that you are absolutely right without question you leave yourself wide open to being taken down, because if you are then wrong about one thing what does that indicate for everything else?
Or how about this response?
In fact, Youtube is FULL of videos of people debunking Shawn’s argument. Shawn is hiding all the negative comments on his videos (why the need if you are absolutely without question correct?). Read on for more videos addressing Shawn’s claims.
What do you think of Shawn’s argument? Are those trying to refute it effective? Join the debate in the comments section!
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March 7th, 2008 at 8:40 pm
Thanks for these
I think Shawn’s argument makes sense — part of the way, like a few of the responders said. Yes, the chocolate bar example is in fact correct, but like one response said, there is not just only one type of religion. Another point that also got me was the probability argument. Who’s to say that one type of Christianity is correct?
Very interesting
March 7th, 2008 at 11:53 pm
I like the person in the third video. He doesn’t try to push his ‘faith’ merely explain what he thinks and why. I also wonder why the default is ‘God,’ and why certain religions immediately state other religions as inferior and/or false.
I believe in a creator, but I’m not sure his/her/it’s name is God, or Allah, or…etc.
I’m not sure of anything. I realize that Plato’s The Myth of the Cave extends to my own skull, which is the cave my mind is in. Perhaps by observing reality we alter it.
But for simplicity sake, I assume I exist, and I assume that other people exist, and I assume that what I do here matters. I have found, to the greatest powers of my imagination, that I can know nothing with absolute certainty, and therefore, I must assume.
Perhaps this makes me lazy. Perhaps I’ll go to hell for it. I’m open to other people’s assumptions.
March 8th, 2008 at 1:31 am
what made god? What made a god of a god? It is all infinite, we live in this infinite space, big bang is a joke, what else is there? We could go forever, we created our own thoughts of destiny and creation.
April 16th, 2008 at 12:34 am
If you really want to learn about arguments for the existence of God than I recommend that you check out some of those that have arose over the past several thousand years. Three of the biggest are: The Ontological Argument, Argument by Intelligent Design and The Cosmological Argument. studied all of these. While the Cosmological and Design arguments have what are considered obvious fatal flaws by anybody who does not start out by assuming their conclusion at the onset, the ontological argument is fascinating and took over 400 years for someone to figure out what what funky with it. While the argument of infinity is creative I’m afraid that the first video is correct in its response.
Lastly, the argument that some people do not want to believe in god because they do not want to be accountable to their creator, right now in the theological (religious) world there is a huge debate on how we can have an omnipotent god and free will at the same time. If god knows what we are going to do (being all knowing) then how can we have a choice? Similarly, if he is all powerful, by the argument of determinism (check it out) he would be responsible for our actions. Actually I find that the primary reason that people don’t believe in god is that they do not find any evidence for them. There is even scientific evidence being discovered right now at places like Yale University in their Cognitive Science department that our idea of god may be nothing but a side effect of our tendency to see agency (meaning and purpose) in inanimate objects.
This field is huge and immensely interesting. While I have yet to find no good reason to believe in the existence of god, what we must all keep in mind is that pretty much all arguments that refute god’s existence do not prove the negative. That is they do not prove god doesn’t exist, merely they show that there is no proof that he does.
May 24th, 2008 at 6:22 am
What are your comments?
Here is the answer
1. His Existence is not coming into Being from non-existence
2. Human faculties of conception, perception and learning, and attributes of volition, intuition and apprehension cannot catch sight of His Person or fathom the extent of His Might and Glory
3. Reason and sagacity cannot visualise Him
4. His Attributes cannot be fixed, limited or defined
5. None can fully understand or explain His Being however hard he or she my try
6. His Worth cannot be described even by the greatest rhetoricians of all times
7. Intelligence, understanding and attainment cannot attain the depth of knowledge to study or scrutinise the Godhead
8. He is so absolutely Pure and above nature, that nothing can be added to or substacted from His Being
9. There is no difference between His Person and His Attributes, and His Attributes should not be differentiated or distinguished from
His Person
10. Whoever accepts His Attributes to be other than His Person then actually forsakes the idea of Unity of God and believes in duality ( He and His Attributes). Such a person in fact believes Him to exist in Parts. One who holds such a faith cannot form a true concept of God, he is ignorant and will always try to believe in some creation of his or her imagination as his or her god
11.There do not exist words in any language to specify or define His qualities, peculiarities, characteristics and singularities
12. He is with everything but not physically and bodily
13. No physical eye has and will ever see Him
14. He has not permitted human mind to grasp the Essence of His Being yet He has not prevented them from realising His Presence
best wishes
July 11th, 2008 at 4:41 pm
Ok guys here it goes this is my small account AGAINST christianity and my attempt at disproving the belief that there is a god out there be it the God from the christian bible or any other look at it this way… Tell me why God created us? the human race? I’ve argued with many pastors most say out of love why would something thats not human create us to feel a human emotion that did not exist before our existence? before the universe there was nothing so if god was here b4 than he too must have been nothing for he is everything and if nothing existed than thats what he is look @ the dinosaurs there is no way to prove them using christianity did you know that the summerians had coppies of storries that are found in the bible you read today? guess what that was thousands of years b4 the bible was written this was back when the first language had just emerged email me @ triggerhappytjs@aol.com to find out what i have come to believe in if you are interested thank you for your time have a great day